Queen Rania’s Interview with ABC News’ Linsey Davis

Linsey Davis: Your Majesty, we thank you so much for talking with us and giving us this time today. Really appreciate it. We are now, as you know, just a few days away from marking one year since the start of the Israel-Hamas war. At least 41,000 Palestinians have died, thousands of them children, an estimated 100 hostages who still remain in Gaza at this point. I know that you have said that the downtrodden and persecuted don't need a change of mind, you said they need a change in circumstances. In your estimation, who or what can best bring about that change in circumstance?

Queen Rania: Well, first of all, thank you for having me here. You know this war has been unprecedented in its scale and brutality. Gaza, which is a third of the size of New York, has been hit with more explosives than Dresden, Hamburg, and London combined throughout World War II. So we have the highest death rate of any conflict this century, and 70% of those killed are women and children.

Gaza is breaking all sorts of records in all the worst ways: The highest rate of starvation… we have the highest cohort of child amputees, the highest level of civilian infrastructure destruction. Two of three buildings have been destroyed, most schools and hospitals, every single university. In this war, there have been more children, journalists, aid workers, and medical personnel killed than any other war. So this is not a defensive war or a normal kind of war.

Every country has a right to defend itself. But what we seeing here is truly an indiscriminate killing spree that's taking place. And we are coming close to the first anniversary of October 7, and we've said from day one, the killing of civilians is wrong. But the response to October 7 is not justifiable. What we're seeing today is a breaking of international law, and we are setting a new precedent in our world.

And so it sometimes feels like the world is operating from two different playbooks. Israeli pain is validated, whereas Palestinian pain is normalized, even justified. It sometimes seems that Israel is the exception to every rule that governs our world, and Palestinians are the exception to universal human rights. And the reason why we have gotten to this point is because the world has failed. There has been no global response that withdrew support from Israel, or applied sanctions, or put any costs and consequences to the origin of this problem, which is the illegal occupation.

So, when a country is able to get away with so much, Israel has become emboldened to break more legal and moral boundaries. And impunity never corrects itself. It just grows through complacency. And what we're seeing here is beyond complacency. You know, when a red line is not really a red line, it becomes a green light. It becomes permission, and Palestinians have been paying the highest price for that “permission” to break all norms. And it has really dangerous implications for our world, because we're setting a new standard, a new precedent, a new normal.

Are we saying that it is okay to use starvation as a weapon of war? To target aid convoys, to target shelters that house civilians, to use collective punishment? What is this saying about our world today? If we are undermining the rule of law, then can we really hold any other country accountable for its actions? If we are criticizing Russia for its conduct in Ukraine, why are we turning a blind eye to what's happening, which is even much worse?

Linsey Davis: You have said that the global community has dragged its feet, and as you well know, some of the most powerful people in the world are gathered here in New York this week for the UN General Assembly. What do you think is the appropriate response for these world leaders, and, specifically, the role of the United States?

Queen Rania: Well, look, as I said, Israel seems to be scaling up rather than scaling down. And while the war was being conducted in Gaza, we've seen a ramp-up of activities and violence in the West Bank, where Hamas are not in the West Bank. So you know, months of killing, raids, mass arrests, and violence by illegal armed settlers under the protection of the Israeli army, have led to the highest level of violence in the West Bank in the last 20 years.

And Israel is using the same playbook in the West Bank as it is in Gaza: destroying infrastructure, and cutting off access to electricity, food, and water. And many are seeing in this approach just another step in Israel's decades-long strategy of completely dominating the West Bank, of its expansionist settlement policy: make life as miserable as possible for people in the West Bank, drive them out, and then move into their homes and territory.

And now what we're seeing in Lebanon is another dangerous escalation. The risk of a regional escalation is now dangerously high. Yesterday was the deadliest day, where almost 500 Lebanese have been killed. In the past year, we saw 600 being killed.

A tit-for-tat violence between Hezbollah and Israel is not new in our region. And historically, they've kept the rules of engagement such as they left the confrontation within a certain threshold to avoid an open war. Hezbollah, from day one, as well as Iran, has made it clear they did not want to cross this threshold. And we saw in Iran's response when their diplomats were assassinated in Syria – they responded, and then they said that this was going to be it. Hezbollah said the same thing, that they did not want an open war. However, I think Israel's calculations are slightly different. They seem to want to escalate and are using Iran as a pretext. Iran – I'm not a defender of Iran's policies or what their plans are in the region. But October 7 was not caused because of Iran, and this particular conflict is as a result of an illegal occupation and oppression that has continued for six decades. It's not just about Iran.

However, Israel seems to be ramping up, and I think part of the reason is Netanyahu’s own political calculations, because of his own situation. He's also probably overcompensating for what was a failure on October 7, a security failure on his side. And therefore, he's trying to appeal to the most extreme elements in his government. And frankly, he's doing it because he can get away with it.

Linsey Davis: Well, how concerned are you, based on Lebanon, again, seeing its deadliest day since 2006 that this may lead to a wider war in the region, and what can be done to prevent it, specifically on behalf of the United States?

Queen Rania: Well, look, I am very worried about what's happening, and I think today, we're much closer to a regional war than we have been in the past year. And I think it is time for the global community to act, specifically the U.S.

I think the expressions of concern or even calls for a ceasefire really are meaningless when you continue to provide arms that kill civilians. The answer is never more arms; that only leads to more violence and more escalation. And America's support, the blanket support that's provided for Israel, has exceeded any reasonable political calculus. The U.S. has military, economic, and diplomatic leverage that it can use with Israel, and it should start exercising that. Not just because it's the right thing to do, not just because you have to uphold international law, but because this is one of the highest rates of killing that we've seen in this century, and because the dangers of escalation are extremely high right now.

And nobody, let me be very clear, nobody wins from such an escalation. Nobody's teaching anybody a lesson. So, I think it's enough of this bravado and chest thumping and bully talk like children in a playground that we're going to teach you a lesson.

If Israel was to achieve its objectives, even if it was to kill every last Hamas fighter, every last Hezbollah fighter, how long will that keep Israel safe? As long as there is an illegal, crushing occupation, as long as people are denied their basic human rights, their freedoms, then there will always be resistance. And nowadays, with modern technology, with AI, with communication tools, it won't take very long for people to regroup and resist again. And the only way to really bring security to the region, to the people of Israel, to Jewish people all over the world who are sometimes unfairly being held responsible for the actions of this government, is through a just and comprehensive peace deal that really addresses and gives rights to both sides.

Linsey Davis: How much culpability do you think that Hamas has with regard to what's happening in Gaza right now?

Queen Rania: Well, October 7 was carried out by Hamas, but the people who are paying the price are innocent civilians. Like I said, you know, the 41,000 who have been killed, the vast majority of them are women and children.

Linsey Davis: But there are people who will say that's because Hamas is hiding out in hospitals, in schools and shelters, right?

Queen Rania: First of all, you know the human shield argument, I think the numbers defy that argument. The death toll, which is wildly disproportionate, it just cannot be explained or rationalized. And as you know, Gaza is one of the most densely populated places in the world, so anywhere that Hamas is going to be, by default, there's going to be civilians there. And even if you know that an operative is there, if you are sure that there are going to be civilians there, then it's illegal to target those places.

And when we talk about human shields, it is standard operating procedure by the Israelis - and we've seen it time and again - when they do raids, they take civilians, Palestinian civilians. I've just seen it recently, where they shot a Palestinian, strapped him to the hood of their car, and drove through Palestinian cities. This is happening all the time, but they never talk about the human shields there. So again, the root cause of this conflict…This conflict did not start on October 7. I feel like it's strange that I have to keep reminding people of this. This is not just about Hamas or October 7. If Hamas was to disappear tomorrow, this conflict would continue. You know, this conflict long predates Hamas and will likely outlive it.

Linsey Davis: And so what is the way forward? Obviously, you support a two-state solution, but in the meantime, what happens to the Palestinian people? What do they do? I mean, even if the ceasefire were over today, they're living in cities that need to be rebuilt entirely.

Queen Rania: I think the number one step now is to try to get an immediate ceasefire. And the reason that we're not reaching that is because, clearly, the Prime Minister of Israel has been buying time. Every time the two sides are close to an agreement, he throws in a new set of conditions or last-minute obstacles. So we need to stop the fighting immediately, and that will deescalate the Lebanon front, every other front.

And then the world community really needs to address the cause of this issue. And in the past, peace talks have failed, because we use the same equation. There were never any costs or consequences to dis-incentivize the occupation, so Israel just felt emboldened to build more settlements, to grab more land. There was never any effort to uphold international law. So I feel if we need to approach the peace process, we need to have a set of parameters or foundations that we can all agree on, and where these can be the starting point. Otherwise, peace will remain elusive and we’ll only reach another dead and deadly end.

So, for example, the starting point should be upholding the international law without exceptions. There can be negotiations and compromises, as is the case of any peace deal. But the departure point, the floor that needs to be set should be international law. Second, human rights are universal. They don't need to be negotiated or earned. Both Palestinians and Israelis have the right to peace and security and self-determination, regardless of which side is more powerful. Third, security is not a zero-sum game. For the longest time, Israelis have been trying to safeguard their own security by denying Palestinians the same. Neither side's insecurity serves the other, it just reinforces the cycle of retaliation and repression. The only way out of that is for both sides to have peace. And fourth, accountability – there can never be justice without accountability. When a nation does something wrong, it needs to be faced with repercussions, not exceptions. And lastly, we cannot be held hostage to the voices on the extreme, voices that are applauding starvation and displacement, that encourage collective punishment, that defend the indefensible, that justify the unjustifiable. We cannot be led by those forces.

If we can agree on those five principles as a starting point, then we can reach a situation where we can find a just peace in our region. And I am just saying that security measures, more war, more weapons are not the answer. The international community needs to come and decide…They have a decision to make: either we prove that the law stands above politics and power, or they have to admit that in this so-called rules-based world order, the rules only apply to the weak. And that's a decision for the international community to make.

Linsey Davis: I have so many more questions, but unfortunately, we're out of time. I thank you so much for taking the time to talk.

Queen Rania: Thank you so much it was a pleasure. Thank you.